Alice Nutter - Chumbawumba Posted by AlMachine on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 My defining Chumbawumba moment was at Rock City on the ‘Anarchy’ tour. I looked up at a girl on someone’s shoulders who looked about fifteen and thought that it was pretty cool that of all the music available to her, all of the bands competing for her attention that this band had managed to get her, by perfectly mixing ideas and sheer entertainment, to have learned the words ‘Homophobia the worst disease, you can’t love who you want to love in times like these.’ Like Le Tigre in America, Chumbawumba are one of the few political bands who continue to entertain and inform in equal measures and have never tapered their content out in line with the times. For a moment they even invaded the mainstream with a number one single and a soaking at the Britts. Alice Nutter is the first person I’ve interviewed and the phone call was a hybrid interview and chat. She’s very down to earth, friendly and funny. We talked about the new album, the acoustic shows, Chumbawumba’s experience going through the major record label process, the absence of politics in popular music today, the effect of punk rock on her and then my time ran out before I could ask about mixing ideas and entertainment, whether she would go to see Dead Kennedys without Jello Biafra singing and if she knew what ever happened to Matty Hanson from Credit to the nation. This is, pretty much a transcript of the interview tape, except that I’ve taken out the Yorkshire dialect from Alice’s phrasing, which is a shame and which I hope isn’t insulting but can look like a caricature on the page. I’ve also tightened up my questions because the way I bumbled them out would make me look like a half-wit. TC: Can I ask you about the title of your new Album ‘un’ and what that means please? ALICE: Well, the easiest answer is that we’ve always had a thing about small, strange words and when we were looking for a title for this album we were looking for ways to describe what it was like and we kept saying it was really unlike Readymades etc we were actually describing it in opposite terms to everything else we’d done. And if you think about all the ways people describe Chumbawumba, which is unfashionable, uncool, unruly…there’s usually an un in front of what they say about us. It’s not about the U.N. TC: Ah! I thought it might have been a play on U.N. So you’re not saying it’s un-Chumbawumba, not unlike previous Chumbawumba albums but unlike everything else out there. ALICE: No, we are saying both although I’ve talked to a few people doing interviews who’ve said that to them it’s like the Anarchy album. TC: I thought it was more low-key than Anarchy but I didn’t think it was that un-Chumbawumba. ALICE: The funny thing is that you only judge it from album to album, so the last album we did, Readymades, was really plaintiff and quite a sad, melancholy album, the sort of album you’d take a long journey to whereas this is a much more up album. TC: Can you tell me about how the album was made, I’ve heard about recording parts abroad onto minidisk. ALICE: For a start we always make our albums really cheaply. We’ve got a rehearsal room studio in Bradford so we do everything ourselves and it costs about two bob. I was going to Cuba and Mexico anyway and we’d already decided that on this album we were going to use lots of different folk music from all over the world, and I say folk music in the sense of not a particular sound but the music that defines the people that live somewhere, the music that people just play. We were already listening to music like Polish fiddle which sounds really out of tune, a polka type thing, but it’s quite beautiful and weird. Because I was going to Cuba anyway, I just took a minidisk. TC: So did the recordings themselves find their way onto the album? ALICE: On one point on the album there’s some kids chanting and that’s straight from Cuba. I went to watch a demonstration for Jose Marti’s birthday and it was like six hours of kids dressed as Castro and Jose Marti, marching along chanting and we used the chants straight from there. I recorded a lot of music while I was away but what we tended to do was listen to it, look at sections we like, then replay them so they fitted into what we wanted. But what we did more than anything was take a feel, so we used lots of atmospheric things like I’d be in…well you can’t really call them shops in Cuba, they’re like a counter with nothing in them but one brown thing in cellophane. There’d be something coming over the tannoy and that will be what’s on the album. TC: Did the band need to learn any new musical things to fit that in at all?: Over the last few years, I think we’ve learned a lot of new musical stuff to be honest, I don’t think we’re ashamed to love things and to struggle to get better. We’re always trying to up out ante. TC: The song ‘On Ebay’ is the track that jumps out of you… ALICE: Is it really, everyone says that but it’s not for me.. TC : I think it is because of the word, because everyone sees Ebay as such a big cultural icon. I can see where the song is coming from in terms of nothing having any intrinsic value… ALICE: It’s not against Ebay. I use Ebay. It’s about the looting of the museum in Baghdad. Well, after it happened Donald Rumsfeld stood in front of TV crews and said, I’ll paraphrase so it won’t be in the right order, ‘I’ve seen the same Persian vase twenty five times on TV, get used to it. Stuff happens, freedom’s untidy and I wouldn’t be surprised if some of this stuff cropped up for sale on Ebay at the weekend. It was just the attitude that the American administration didn’t care if Iraq’s treasures were decimated. Also, they’d pledged to protect that museum, they’d been told before anything had happened that this was the one place that Iraq’s cultural heritage was contained in and they’d given all these assurances and then just stood by and let it happen because as far as Rumsfeld is concerned and the Bush administration is concerned, that the only culture Iraq’s allowed to have is American. And also, if people have no identity, it’s easier to crush them. TC: The Chumbawumba tour starts this week and begins with some acoustic shows before going on to the full band shows after. Are the acoustic shows to warm up? ALICE: No, it’s completely different. The acoustic shows have been really good for us actually. If you’ve ever been to a Chumbawumba gig it’s up and there’s costumes and dancing, well the acoustic shows are completely different. For a start, it’s just voices, no instruments. There’s a couple of acoustic guitars at some point and accordion on a couple of songs but otherwise it’s just acapella harmonies. We do a lot of traditional English folk songs, we revamp the Clash’s Bank Robber because we think that’s a folk song. Then we mix in acoustic versions of Chumbawumba songs but there’s much more talking with the audience and people are sat down. It’s more like an evening with… TC: They sound like nice shows, really involved. ALICE: We’ve had loads of response from people, who’ve been to see them, who ‘ve said they really like the fact that you’re telling stories between songs and you’re communicating directly with the audience, there’s this quiet beauty to them.. TC: I don’t imagine that you’re the kind of band who’d want to be distant from your audience but the scope of your electric shows is so big that I can’t imagine that they lend themselves to that intimacy. ALICE: Our electric thing is generally a rush through and a lot of it’s timed. On the introductions to songs you might get a voice coming in, a sample of an American fundamentalist and you’ve got to come in the minute it’s finishes, there’s no chatting, whereas the acoustic thing’s got it’s own pace. I think they’ve been fantastic for stagecraft. TC: The two shows at the same time sound very different then. Is it like having to learn a massive set? ALICE: It does your head in a bit when you’re trying to remember the electric and acoustic versions of stuff but the acoustic set’s doubled in the time that we’ve been doing it, the number of songs we’ve got because we’re doing other people’s songs too. I was reading about Howlin Wolf this weekend and he never used to have a set, he used to gage what the audience felt like and then go into songs. TC: That can only be from doing a million shows ALICE: The acoustic thing gives you miles more scope for that. You could never do that on our electric set, especially with costume changes, you’d have the wrong fucking costume on. Also on the electric shows we’ve got more new songs than we’ve ever had which I’m really looking forward to, to be honest. There’ll be six songs off the new album so it’s a big chunk. TC: Can we talk a little bit about your major record label experience? The ideological side was chatted about when you signed. I’m fascinated more in young bands expectations when they go into the major record label process, what happens when they’re there and what happens when they come out. I always worry for bands who say ‘we’ve just been signed to X label’ because the experience can be bad. You were different in that you’d been through the DIY process and the independent record label process before you went into your major deal and I suspect you were more informed about what to expect. So I’m interested in your expectations, your experience of the process and whether you came out of it unscathed. ALICE: To be honest, it was exactly what we expected. Actually it was more than what we expected. When we went into it, we said ‘OK we’ll sign the deal’. The advance, when we did it, was a hundred and twenty grand and we said whatever happens, that will finance the next album. That’s the worst that can happen, we’ll sell no records but we’ll have enough money to put an album out ourselves. So when we sold a load of records that was a complete shock. We always knew that we wouldn’t fit in happily with the major label in terms of, we’re easy to deal with as people but creatively, I don’t think we’re that easy because we’re not a pop product and because we won’t behave in ways that the music industry expects you to behave. For instance, after the Prescott thing, the head of EMI sent all our records back to us in a carrier bag. We knew all that stuff, but we also knew that if it worked for one record, it would be more than we expected and that as soon as we weren’t selling records, that we’d just go off and do something else, that they wouldn’t be interested in us. Because, in a way, we had such a cynical outlook, it was absolutely fine. TC: Was there ever the danger that you’d have to pay the advance back at the end of the deal?: ALICE: No, we took ages. Partly because we’d been around so long, the one thing we did, before we signed with a major label, which we should have done before we signed with indies and we never did, for years we had this mad mad attitude of ‘we behave really honourably, we don’t need contracts, you’ll behave honourably too. It’s fucking Mad! By that time we’d been stung, burned ad ripped off mercilessly for so many years, so when we went into a major label, the one thing we did is take ages and ages with the contract. We put all sorts of clauses in that bands don’t normally do. One of the main things we put in was that if somebody sampled us without our permission, the record company could not sue them. So we did all sorts of things that we’d learned over the years. To be honest it was an all right experience because we knew what to expect, what we expected happened and we came away with enough money to release records ourselves which has run out now, but it gave us a bit more longevity. It wasn’t that much different, to be honest, from the indies apart from the fact that because we had a hit record, more people wanted to talk to us so we were absolutely fucked. By the time we’d signed to a major, the indies were trying to be like the majors anyway so the experience wasn’t all that different. All credit to One Little Indian, they did things that a Major wouldn’t do. Can you remember the girl who died of an e tablet, Leah Betts. We were really pissed off at that campaign that basically made out that if you took one e, you’re dead, it’s really dangerous. So we had posters made up that had Pictures of Leah Betts), you’re going to think this is awful, that said ‘DISTORTED’ and did a thing about the things that you were more likely to die from because that drug campaign was just not real information. One Little Indian did back us on things like that, EMI never would have backed us so in some respects I think they were different from a major but I think that no record company would back us now on the things that we want to do because they’ve all had to become too safe. So anything weird that we want to do, we pay for ourself. TC: If you knew some young musicians excitedly into a major deal what would your advice be. ALICE: Get a fantastic lawyer. That’s on offer. And also, the way the majors are now, they own everything and it’s really really difficult for people to get records out. So I fully understand people being excited by it because it’s a way to do what you love but you need a fucking fantastic lawyer and you need to talk to people who’ve been doing it for years because you need to see what’s coming. TC: Do you think it is difficult to get records out yourself with the access the internet offers. ALICE: With downloading, it’s created an easy way of people hearing your music, which I think is brilliant, but you won’t make any money out of it at all. We’re downloaded all the time but you don’t sell records as a result of it. Our attitude towards that is, that we’re in a transition period and the record industry’s a dinosaur and people will have to play gigs to make a living. TC: I always see it that musicians used to make a living playing live, then someone managed to capture one days work and sell it over and over again and that games up now. ALICE: You’re absolutely right, it’s really difficult for other artists, like painters to recreate what they’ve done to make a living out of it. For me I think it’s absolutely important that people have access to music and I like the idea of sharing creativity for free, unfortunately we don’t live in a world where everything else is shared for free, you need to make a living. Downloading damages us financially but ideologically I totally support it. TC: We’re living in pretty dark times at the moment but if you’re 19 and you look to the mainstream or the alternative mainstream, there isn’t much in the way of politically motivated music. Why do you think this is? ALICE: Because I think they’re scared at the amount of ridicule that will be heaped upon them. I think it was a definite political decision that was taken in the eighties to make any culture that didn’t support the status quo, into a laughing stock. It’s an old political tool, you just ridicule it, if that doesn’t work then you beat people up and if that doesn’t work you fuck them up. I think people do want involved music and they do want political music but if you look at the artists that are involved in the anti war movement, they’re not releasing records, most of the time, that have political content. They might stand up at a rally. Because as soon as you become politically engaged, you’ll be accused of making bad art. Look what’s happened to George Michael, I love it when George Michael opens his mouth. When he talks, I think he’s fucking brilliant, I think he’s fantastic, don’t particularly love his music but I’ve got loads of respect for the fact that he’s now started to say things in music and, yet, for the first time in his life, he’s got reviews left, right and centre saying he’s an idiot, that he’s got no right to be talking politics and he’s making bad art. What was Club Tropicana! People do want it but I think that what happens with 19 year olds is instead, because they can’t find that outsider thing they go to sub-genres so they end up being into northern soul or goth or something that’s not in the mainstream that’s slightly different and it’s political content comes not from the lyrics or the music but from the fact that it stands outside the mainstream. You need that outsider thing, something that your parents won’t like and that’s getting more and more difficult because your parents were around in the seventies and have quite catholic expansive tastes. TC: I wonder how that’s going to shape people which is something else I’d like to ask you about and that’s how has punk rock shaped you as a person? ALICE: It shaped me creatively, I don’t know about as a person. Creatively, it gave me a notion that I didn’t have to be special to be in a band, I didn’t even have to be musical. That people could create things and you could get up on stage and you could do something interesting and for a working class kid, that’s a fantastic thing, that changed the course of my life, I’m sure that I would have ended up stuck in Burnley for the rest of my life. I’m not sure actually because I was desperate to get out. It opened up a different path and it opened up a new set of possibilities. That doesn’t exist anymore, a lot of that has to do with the dole culture dying. That used to pay people to have a creative life to discover what they were and what they wanted to be and didn’t want to be. Blair talks about backing pop music, if he wanted to back pop music, keep the dole culture. That was development money for music. TC: So you don’t think that the different ideologies of punk rock shaped you personally. ALICE: Yeah, I think I’m still a punk, I’m forty odd, I’ve got kids, I think I’m a punk. But that isn’t the only thing. You get people who are into punk rock now and it’s all they’re into, I don’t like the way that all musical things just become straight jackets and define what you are. For instance, I went to Wigan Casino, I went to Northern Soul from being fourteen. I think that shaped me as well. The older I get, I get different things out of different stuff. For instance, I’ll listen to a lot of old blues singers, I like Ma Rainey and I can see that they’ve influenced rock n roll, they’ve influenced the way that women make statements now. Far more daring statements that women in rock n roll make now. So in a way, I think punk happened before punk had a name, everybody talks about that famous picture of Robert Mitcham getting done for dope in the forties as being the first punk rock picture because he had that ‘fuck you’ face on. Punk Rock might be a term and might have come into being and a movement at a certain point in time but that attitude has always been involved in the creative arts and music. Early Picasso –Punk Rocker! TC.